Legislature(1995 - 1996)
10/05/1995 09:00 AM House STA
| Audio | Topic |
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
JOINT HOUSE AND SENATE STATE AFFAIRS COMMITTEE
October 5, 1995
9:00 a.m.
Anchorage, AK
HOUSE MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Jeannette James, Chair
Representative Scott Ogan, Vice Chair
Representative Ivan Ivan
Representative Brian Porter
Representative Ed Willis
Representative Joe Green
HOUSE MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Caren Robinson
SENATE MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Bert Sharp, Chair
Senator Loren Leman
Senator Dave Donley
SENATE MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator Randy Phillips, Vice Chair
Senator Jim Duncan
ALSO IN ATTENDANCE
Senator Lyda Green, Prime Sponsor of SB 177
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HB 338: "An Act relating to permits to carry concealed handguns."
HEARD AND HELD
SB 177: "An Act relating to permits to carry concealed handguns."
HEARD AND HELD
WITNESS REGISTER
JACK PHELPS
443 Falke Court
Anchorage, AK 99504
POSITION STATEMENT: Suggested changes to HB 338 & SB 177
WAYNE A. ROSS
Box 101522
Anchorage, AK 99510
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports HB 338 & SB 177
HARRY BUCILLI
4113 Ingra
Anchorage, AK 99503
POSITION STATEMENT: Concerned with deleting fingerprinting
requirements
BERNARD GOODNO
P.O. Box 92
Delta Junction, AK 99737
POSITION STATEMENT: Believes permitting system unconstitutional
GENE CARLEY
13720 Arne Erickson Circle
Anchorage, AK 99515
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports fee reductions in HB 338 & SB 177
TIM SCHRAGE
171 Muldoon Road, #115
Anchorage, AK 99504
POSITION STATEMENT: Has concerns with restrictions on where a
concealed handgun can be carried
BOB PARKERSON
HC02 Box 7630-A1
Palmer, AK 99645
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports training classes & reciprocity
LADD MCBRIDE
P.O. Box 83567
Fairbanks, AK 99708
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports HB 338 & SB 177
LEONARD F. SCHULTZ
P.O. Box 52057
Big Lake, AK 99652
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposes deleting fingerprint requirements
ALLAN E. COUSENS
P.O. Box 672273
Chugiak, AK 99567
POSITION STATEMENT: Suggested changes on restrictions of where
concealed handgun can be carried
R. G. HOHNSTEIN
P.O. Box 102427
Anchorage, AK 99510
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports fingerprinting and expanding where
a concealed handgun can be carried
ROBERT NESVICK, JR.
Box 5726
Ketchikan, AK 99901
POSITION STATEMENT: Suggested exempting retired law enforcement
officers from permitting process
RUSSELL KELL
3113 Wesleyan Drive
Anchorage, AK 99508
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposes fingerprinting requirement
DOUGLAS VANWINGERDEN
P.O. Box 872785
Wasilla, AK 99687
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports fee revisions and less restrictions
on where a concealed handgun can be carried
MIKE MASTERS
HCR1 Box 1480
Soldotna, AK 99669
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports less restrictions on where a
concealed handgun can be carried
JIM CHAPMAN
HC1 Box 1502
Soldotna, AK 99669
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports less restrictions on where a
concealed handgun can be carried
RAY CARR
4401 North Dogwood
Kenai, AK 99611
POSITION STATEMENT: Training should be more specific for
concealed handguns
EMERY CUPPLES
836 M Street, #302
Anchorage, AK 99501
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports current permitting system
BRUCE OCKRASA
P.O. Box 103374
Anchorage, AK 99510
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposes permitting process
CHUCK MAXSON
1731 Diomede
Anchorage, AK 99504
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports fingerprinting, but opposes training
for individuals with previous weapons training
CLYDE BROUMLEY
P.O. Box 877107
Wasilla, AK 99682
POSITION STATEMENT: Fingerprinting unnecessary
CHUCK PARKER
3338 Wesleyan Drive
Anchorage, AK 99508
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports HB 338 & SB 177 and less restrictions
on where concealed handgun can be carried
MICHAEL COONS
P.O. Box 4229
Palmer, AK 99645
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports revised training requirement
EUGENE P. MURPHY
3515 Vassar Drive
Anchorage, AK 99588
POSITION STATEMENT: Made suggested changes to legislation
ROBERT WISEMAN
P.O. Box 1135
Soldotna, AK 99669
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports reciprocity, but opposes changes to
training requirements
JIM DORE
P.O. Box 113171
Anchorage, AK 99501
POSITION STATEMENT: Current law is unconstitutional and should be
repealed
GENE EMERY
3924 Boniface Parkway
Anchorage, AK 99504
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports fingerprinting and providing free
permits to senior citizens
RAY WOODMANSEE
8610 Jupiter Drive
Anchorage, AK 99507
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports less restrictions on where a
concealed handgun can be carried
STUART A. REDER
7081 Chad Street
Anchorage, AK 99518
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports less restrictions on where a
concealed handgun can be carried
DAVID MARSHALL
2415 Hemlock Street, Suite 1110
Ketchikan, AK 99901
POSITION STATEMENT: Legislation needs guidance on selling handguns
to persons with concealed handgun permits
BOB LOCHMAN
Anchorage, AK 99502
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports revisions in HB 338 & SB 177, but has
concerns with restrictions on where a
concealed handgun can be carried
DOROTHY BROUMLEY
P.O. Box 877107
Wasilla, AK 99687
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports revisions in HB 338 & SB 177, but has
concerns with restrictions on where a
concealed handgun can be carried
ROBERT HILLIKER
HC 62, Box 5160
Delta Junction, AK 99737
POSITION STATEMENT: Believes current law is unconstitutional
MICHAEL PAOLETTI
3225 Tarwater Avenue
Anchorage, AK 99510
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports less restrictions on where a
concealed handgun can be carried
RANDY SMITH
801 North Bragaw
Anchorage, AK 99508
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports HB 338 & SB 177 and less restrictions
on where a concealed handgun can be carried
JAMES CLARK
4100 Bull Moose Drive
Wasilla, AK 99654
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports less restrictions on where a
concealed handgun can be carried
DREW VILLANI
9499 Brayton Drive, #60
Anchorage, AK 99507
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports less restrictions on where a
concealed handgun can be carried
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 338
SHORT TITLE: CONCEALED HANDGUN PERMIT AMENDMENTS
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) JAMES,Foster
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
05/07/95 1950 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
05/07/95 1950 (H) STATE AFFAIRS, JUDICIARY
10/05/95 (H) STA AT 09:00 AM ANCHORAGE LIO
BILL: SB 177
SHORT TITLE: CONCEALED HANDGUN PERMIT AMENDMENTS
SPONSOR(S): SENATOR(S) GREEN
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
05/06/95 1552 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
05/06/95 1552 (S) STA, JUD
10/05/95 (H) STA AT 09:00 AM ANCHORAGE LIO
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 95-29, SIDE A
Number 001
HB 338 & SB 177 - CONCEALED HANDGUN PERMIT AMENDMENTS
REPRESENTATIVE JEANNETTE JAMES, Chair of the House State Affairs
Committee, called the joint meeting of the Senate and House State
Affairs Committees to order in the Anchorage Legislative
Information Office conference room at 9:00 a.m.
In her opening remarks, Chair James noted she sponsored the
original legislation relating to permits for the carrying of a
concealed handgun, which was signed into law in July 1994, and HB
338 and SB 177 are revisions to that legislation.
Chair James outlined the following revisions contained in HB 388:
1. Deletes the fingerprint requirement and substitute a
criminal background record check of available state and federal
databases.
2. Deletes FBI investigation and change department's time
limit for approval from 15 to 30 days.
3. Deletes requirement to qualify with specific action
types and calibers of handguns.
4. Changes residency requirement from one year to 90 days.
5. Changes application fee cap from $125 to $65; change
renewal fee cap from $50 to $25.
6. Changes demonstration of competence with a handgun to
require one of the following:
(1) successful completion of a:
(a) Hunter or firearms education course or hunter or
firearms safety course approved by the Department of
Fish and Game, the Department of Public Safety, or
similar agencies of another state;
(b) National Rifle Association firearms safety or
training course;
(c) Firearms safety or training course or class
available to the general public offered by a law
enforcement, university or college, or private or
public institution or organization of firearms
training school utilizing instructors certified by
the National Rifle Association or the Alaska
Department of Public Safety;
(d) Law enforcement firearms safety or training course
or class offered for security guards, investigators,
or a division or subdivision of a law enforcement or
security enforcement; and
(e) Firearms safety or training course or class
conducted by a state certified or National Rifle
Association certified firearms instructor.
(2) Presentation of evidence of experience with a handgun,
equivalent to any of the courses or classes above,
through participation in organized shooting competition
or military service;
(3) Presentation of evidence that the applicant is licensed
or has been licensed to carry a handgun in this state,
unless the license has been revoked for cause.
7. Deletes from the definition of "competence" the ability to
place in a life size silhouette target 7 out of 10 shots at 7
yards and 6 out of 10 shots at 15 yards.
8. Adds to list of convictions which would prohibit qualification
for a concealed handgun permit: "In a public or private place,
the person challenges another to fight or engages in fighting
other than in self-defense."
9. Changes the list of places where a concealed handgun may not be
carried: A concealed handgun may be carried in a building
which houses a state or federal office as long as it is not
carried into the state or federal office itself.
10. Provides that a copy of laws and regulations is provided with
each application form.
11. Also contains a few other minor language changes.
Number 090
CHAIR JAMES then opened the meeting to public testimony from
witnesses present in Anchorage, as well as witnesses waiting to
testify from the participating legislative teleconference sites,
and she requested that witnesses limit their testimony to three
minutes.
Sandy Perry-Provost, representing the Department of Public Safety,
and Carla Timpone, staff to Representative Robinson, informed the
committee they were present at the Juneau teleconference site
monitoring the meeting.
Number 110
The first witness to testify was Jack Phelps who worked with the
sponsor in the drafting of the original concealed handgun
legislation.
JACK PHELPS of Anchorage, representing himself, stated he is a life
member of the National Rifle Association (NRA), as well as an
instructor certified by the Department of Public Safety to provide
the training that is specified in the current law for a concealed
carry permit.
MR. PHELPS said when the original legislation was being put
together, while it enjoyed tremendous widespread support, including
the support of a number of police officers, there was difficulty
with the higher levels of the Department of Public Safety in their
concerns with the legislation, however, their response to the new
law has been very good. He encouraged members to assure the
department that the revisions to the law are not in any way
criticisms of the department with respect to their enforcement of
the law.
Speaking to a technical concern with the legislation, Mr. Phelps
said that in current law, the demonstration of competency is
demonstrated to the department at the time of application through
a certificate issued by the trainer. Paragraphs (2) and (3) of
Section 7 require the presentation of evidence, but there is no
requirement that any evidence of training be presented to the
department if it is being done under subsection (a). The result is
that it provides that there is still a certificate that has to be
presented at renewal, but not a certificate that has to be
presented at initial application, unless using a couple of
alternatives: evidence of experience, or the reciprocity section.
He is concerned that in existing subsection (c), where it requires
certificate of confidence for renewal, the section that would
prohibit from including identifying information about handguns
owned is taken out. He urged that the deleted language in Section
3, subsection (d) which provides that the permit must specify
action types, remain deleted, but not to delete the prohibition
against specifying handguns owned. He also offered to provide
alternative language to the committee that addresses the problems
he had outlined.
Number 205
WAYNE ROSS of Anchorage, representing himself, stated he is a
director with the National Rifle Association and that he holds a
concealed weapons permit from the state of Alaska. He pointed out
that despite his NRA training, his military training, his 35 years
of experience with firearms, he still had to sit through a very
long 12 hours to get a permit in Alaska.
MR. ROSS expressed his appreciation for the original concealed
weapons permit legislation, and said HB 338 is a good step forward
to clean the bill up substantially. However, he said he disagrees
with Mr. Phelps' comment about the cooperation from the Department
of Public Safety, because he believes the Knowles Administration
has an anti-gun agenda, which he believes is evident from the
regulations. He suggested retaining the law that provides that the
regulations can't be more stringent than the laws that were enacted
by the legislature. He pointed out there is a lawsuit pending
which challenges the current regulations, but he believes the new
legislation will help rectify that situation.
Number 250
HARRY BUCILLI of Anchorage, owner of a fingerprinting business and
a former police officer, said there have been some negative
comments on fingerprinting, and a lot of people feel that it is an
infringement on their personal rights, etc., but fingerprinting is
also a protection for the people that do carry handguns. He said
a comment was made that the FBI does not need a set of fingerprints
to identify an applicant's criminal background, but he believes
they are needed. A name check by the FBI is only done if a set of
prints is so bad that they cannot be identified. Also, a name
check, basically, is about 20 percent accurate. He said the
fingerprints are used to look for people, and he cautioned that if
that is taken away, anybody is going to be able to get these
permits and he does not want a convicted felon being issued a
permit.
Number 300
BERNARD GOODNO, testifying from Delta Junction, stated the U.S.
Constitution is the supreme law of the land. He said the Supreme
Court has made all kinds of rulings and they have said the state
cannot take a secured liberty, which is a constitutional right and
turn it into a privilege, issue a license and then can punish an
individual if he believes he is exercising a constitutional right.
He believes the permit system is illegal and should be repealed.
Number 325
GENE CARLEY of Anchorage, stated his support for the reductions in
the application fee cap and the renewal fee cap, pointing out that
many people are on fixed incomes and have limited means. He
observed that no one who has demonstrated himself clearly and
beyond any question to be law abiding and to be observant of the
general rules of society under which we live is trusted by this
state government to wear a concealed firearm into state buildings,
offices, etc., which shows a terrible distrust by the government of
what the government has demonstrated are law-abiding citizens.
Also, while he does not like the idea of fingerprints, he believes
they are a reasonable necessity in the case of concealed handgun
permitting.
Number 375
TIM SCHRAGE of Anchorage, stated he is a permit holder and a small
business owner who depends on his concealed weapon, not only for
his personal safety, but for the safety of his business as well.
Every day he makes a trip to the bank, but when he gets to the
bank, he has to leave his weapon inside his vehicle, which places
it in a position where it could be stolen and used by someone who
doesn't have a permit. He said he has a fundamental problem with
that; he has proven that he is a legitimate law-abiding citizen,
yet he can't carry his weapon 100 yards to the bank. He also noted
that under current law, he can't eat in most restaurants if he has
his weapon on him because they have beverage dispensary licenses.
It was pointed out that the law provides that he can carry that
weapon into such an establishment if the weapon is not loaded.
Number 470
REPRESENTATIVE BRIAN PORTER pointed out that there may be a problem
with federal law as it relates to banks, notwithstanding what the
state law does.
REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT OGAN commented that he is also a concealed
handgun permit holder and he, too, is uneasy about leaving his gun
in his locked vehicle because of the possibility of it being
stolen.
Number 525
BOB PARKERSON, testifying from the Mat-Su Legislative Information
Office (LIO), stated he had faxed his testimony to the committee,
but he did want to address his concern that fingerprinting goes to
the FBI and they know the reason for the fingerprinting, which he
does not believe is any of their business and that it is an
invasion of privacy. However, he believes the training classes
that are given for carrying a concealed weapon are extremely
important and that aspect should be retained in the law. He would
also like to see reciprocity with other states concerning permits.
Number 585
LADD MCBRIDE, testifying from Fairbanks as a private citizen,
stated his support for the revisions in HB 338 and SB 177, as well
as any additional changes that would reduce the inconvenience and
cost to those law-abiding citizens who wish to carry concealed
weapons. He hopes the changes will send a message to the
bureaucrats that their interpretations of the statutes passed by
the legislature will be tempered with not only common sense, but to
take care not to overstep the intent of the statutes. He reminded
the committee to keep in mind that they are regulating the law-
abiding citizens and cannot regulate the criminal who would
probably not apply for this permit to begin with.
Number 625
LEONARD SCHULTZ, testifying in Anchorage, stressed the importance
of giving the authorities what they need to strike down criminals.
He believes law enforcement needs all the tools they can get to
take care of crime and to protect the public. He voiced his
opposition to changing the fingerprinting provision in the law.
Number 658
ALLAN COUSENS, testifying in Anchorage, stated he and his wife are
permit holders and that it cost them approximately $300 in fees to
get those permits. He spoke highly of the training classes.
However, he suggested a change be made to the Alaska law so that
a person who is approved to carry a concealed weapon can carry that
weapon anywhere. He spoke to the inconvenience of having to leave
his weapon in his vehicle when going to a bank, etc. Also, he
would like to see the part of the law which gives municipalities or
villages the ability to enact legislation to prohibit the carrying
of a concealed weapon changed because he believes the law should be
consistent statewide so that if he has a permit to carry a weapon
in Anchorage, he can also carry that weapon anywhere else in the
state.
TAPE 95-29, SIDE B
Number 001
R.G. HOHNSTEIN, testifying in Anchorage, stated he has been a
military instructor, but he believes Governor Knowles and others in
law enforcement are against firearms. He spoke in favor of
fingerprinting and being the given the ability to carry a concealed
weapon when going to a financial institution. He believes the
requirement for a hunter or education course should be expanded to
include a course on personal protection. He also believes the size
of the targets should be smaller with some kind of time limit.
Number 042
ROBERT NESVICK, JR., a retired state trooper and former police
chief of the Annette Island Reserve testifying from Ketchikan,
requested consideration of adding an amendment that honorably
retired law enforcement officers, with the appropriate
identification issued from their department, be exempt from the
permit process and be able to continue carrying the weapon they
have carried over the years while they were working. He pointed
out that Oregon and California currently allow this and there may
be other states as well. He also noted that the U.S. Congress,
with SB 960 and HB 218, is considering doing this on a nationwide
basis for current and retired law enforcement officers. He also
encouraged that the current qualification requirements in the
permitting process still be required every five years to keep the
person qualified.
Number 070
RUSSELL KELL, testifying in Anchorage, said a letter to Senator
Green from the Department of Public Safety does not point out that
the state of Vermont, which has a similar population to Alaska, has
absolutely no permit requirement, but they do allow the carrying of
concealed weapons. He said they don't seem to have any significant
problem in catching criminals without fingerprinting all the people
that decide to carry handguns. He stated he is more concerned with
the probable crimes at Ruby Ridge or Waco as a threat to our
society than he is from citizens who may be criminals. He
suggested that if the Department of Public Safety is concerned with
reciprocity they could suggest an amendment to the law that would
allow a citizen of Alaska who wants reciprocity to submit
fingerprints.
Number 110
DOUGLAS VANWINGERDEN of Wasilla, testifying from the Mat-Su LIO,
voiced his support for the revisions to the permit fees, which he
believes are currently too high. He also believes that the
restrictions relating to where individuals can carry handguns is
putting the honest law-abiding citizen at a disadvantage; he has
already proven that he is a law-abiding citizen when going through
the process to obtain that permit.
Number 120
MIKE MASTERS of Soldotna, testifying from the Soldotna LIO, agreed
with the previous speaker's comments. He said he has a permit, but
the restrictions in the current law on where he can carry a
concealed handgun have discouraged him, in most cases, from
carrying one, and he suggested making it less restrictive.
Number 135
JIM CHAPMAN of Soldotna, testifying from the Soldotna LIO,
concurred with earlier testimony that the current fees are too high
and that places where handguns can be carried is too restrictive.
He also believes that as long as an individual qualifies he should
be able to have that permit for life instead of having to renew it
every five years.
Number 145
RAY CARR of Kenai, testifying from the Soldotna LIO, stated that as
an instructor, his main concern is the training. He does not
believe that the hunter or firearm education course will help for
concealed carry because they don't go into handguns, or drawing,
etc. He believes the training should be specific for someone
carrying a concealed handgun.
Number 155
EMERY CUPPLES of Anchorage stated he paid $122 to the State Trooper
licensing division to get his concealed handgun permit and he is
completely happy with the way the system is right now. However, he
wanted to go on record that if the legislation gets passed, the
state of Alaska owes him $57. He believes that if the law is going
to be changed, it should be made fair for everybody that has
complied. He questioned what's the good of a concealed handgun
permit if it can't be packed all of the time. He also spoke in
support of fingerprinting.
Number 210
BRUCE OCKRASA of Anchorage, a NRA member and instructor, stated
people have a lot of different rights. He said if an individual
goes to a handgun show and buys a gun, within a couple of hours it
is legal for the individual to walk out of there with the gun. He
questioned why there is such a great difference in requirements in
being able to own a gun and then being able to carry that gun in
your pocket. He believes education is advantageous and should be
encouraged, but that it should not be legislated.
Number 250
CHUCK MAXSON of Anchorage voiced support for cutting the cost of
obtaining a concealed handgun permit. However, as a former
gunner's mate in the U.S. Navy, he believes training for some
people is unnecessary if they have had previous weapons training.
He suggested keeping in the fingerprinting requirement.
Number 271
CLYDE BROUMLEY of Wasilla stated he was an employee of the
Department of Corrections, but that he was testifying on his own
behalf. He believes that it is the individual's responsibility to
be proficient, not the state's responsibility to ensure that, and
that fingerprinting is unnecessary. He expressed his appreciation
for the legislation, stating he believes it is on the right track.
Number 310
CHUCK PARKER of Anchorage stated his support for the revisions in
HB 338 and SB 177. He stated his strong objection to
fingerprinting because it is an invasion of an individual's
privacy, and he believes the restrictions on where a concealed
handgun can be carried should be reduced.
Number 326
MICHAEL COONS of Palmer stated he was testifying on behalf of
himself and his wife and that he would submit written testimony for
the record. He questioned why 15 days was being added on to the
department's time limit for approval when other states can do an
NCIC check in 45 seconds. He also questioned if engaging in
fighting, which is being added to the list of convictions which
would prohibit qualification for a permit, would be a felony
conviction. He spoke in support of the revised training
requirement, which he said will reward those who have already taken
firearms training courses by not requiring an additional cost. For
those who have not had any firearms training, these revisions will
help in a statewide firearms safety overall with minimal cost to
the applicant.
Number 390
EUGENE MURPHY, an Anchorage attorney speaking on his own behalf,
said he flinches when he hears the terms "concealed weapons" and
"concealed weapons permit" because those permits are only for
handguns. He pointed out that one of the anomalies of the law is
that it allows an individual, when licensed, to carry a heavy
caliber handgun, but not such a thing as a hunting knife or other
things defined as a deadly weapon. He urged that reciprocity be
considered and adopted. He also stated it is wrong that a person
who has only been charged with a crime have his permit lifted,
because our society has this presumption of innocence. He urged
that it be changed to a person must be convicted of such a crime
before having the permit lifted. He also urged that retired police
officers not be given special privileges for carrying concealed
handguns.
Number 552
ROBERT WISEMAN of Soldotna, testifying from the Soldotna LIO,
stated his belief that the legislation would be a great disservice
to all Alaskans, because it would go a long way in taking so much
of the integrity out of the program that so many worked so very
hard for. He noted he is a NRA certified instructor for the
firearms safety course, and he invited any interested persons to
participate in the course, attend the classes because they would
see why this NRA class requires a 12-hour course and why this
integrity needs to be maintained. He also urged working toward
reciprocity for the concealed carry program.
Number 630
JIM DORE of Anchorage pointed out that Vermont's law relating to
the right to carry a concealed handgun involves no permit, no fee
and no background check; the people there are free to defend
themselves as they see fit. He also pointed out that Alaska's
Constitution states that the individual's right to keep and bear
arms shall not be denied or infringed. He stated should any
restrictions be put on Alaskans' right to carry arms, legislators
would be violating their oath of office. Therefore, the current
law is unconstitutional and must be repealed, he said.
Number 662
GENE EMERY of Anchorage stated he is a federal firearms dealer and
he must submit fingerprints for federal firearms, and he thinks the
fingerprint requirement should be kept for anybody that cannot show
where they have got their fingerprints on file. Speaking as a
senior citizen, he believes the permit for a senior citizen should
be free just like the hunting and fishing permit, and that it
should be for life. He said senior citizens are the most subject
victims of crime, and the requirements for them should be brought
down to the senior citizens that may be sick in bed, confined to
wheelchairs, etc., but who still have the physical ability to use
a gun.
TAPE 95-30, SIDE A
Number 038
RAY WOODMANSEE of Anchorage spoke to his concern with the
restrictions of where a concealed weapon can be carried. Although
he agrees that guns and alcohol do not mix, he finds it an
imposition to have to leave his weapon in the car when he goes into
any number of restaurants in town that serve alcohol. He suggested
it could be further defined to the point where nobody can carry a
concealed weapon if they are drinking at all.
Number 060
STUART REDER of Anchorage said that the utility of the permit
process for up close self-defense is severely undermined by the
restrictions on where a gun can be carried. He said we have the
permit to demonstrate that we are law-abiding citizens who are
competent to handle a handgun.
Number 085
DAVID MARSHALL, testifying from the Ketchikan LIO, stated that he
is the manager of a sports retail shop in Ketchikan that also sells
firearms. He said the shop received an ATF news release from San
Francisco saying that concealed handgun permit requirements meet
the requirement of the Brady Bill, which allows a person who has a
handgun permit to purchase a gun over the counter. However, he
said the problem he came across is that he has no way of telling
him how to do it, and he suggested putting some guidance into the
legislation giving some guidance as to how to go about issuing the
handgun to the person. He also suggested the legislation should
contain a provision relating to specific training in the area of
handgun safety such as for security guards.
Number 120
BOB LOCHMAN, a retired Alaska State Trooper and a NRA certified
firearms instructor testifying in Anchorage, stated he basically
supports the revisions to the law, but does have concern with two
areas of the current statute. One is with the restriction of
having to leave the handgun in a parked car if entering a bank, a
public building, etc. His other area of concern is that he thinks
the system costs too much in time and money for the individual
trying to get a permit. He questioned why a concealed carry permit
needs so much identification and costs so much more than a drivers
license.
Number 186
DOROTHY BROUMLEY of Wasilla, testifying from the Anchorage LIO,
said she worked the graveyard shift at a 7-11 and was held up by a
young man with a knife. He told the police his intention was to
get the $25 that was in the cash register and then he was going to
kill her so there would be no witnesses. She recently quit her
job, shortly after a young lady was killed in Fairbanks. She does
not believe there should be so many regulations on her ownership
and use of a gun; she believes they should be the simplest
regulations that will still provide the state with the safety it
needs to have. She stated her support for the revisions in the
legislation.
Number 220
ROBERT HILLIKER, testifying from Delta Junction, stated he
appreciates what's trying to be accomplished with the legislation,
however, he believes Alaskans are guaranteed by the U.S.
Constitution and the Alaska Constitution the right to keep or own
and carry arms. He believes that state governments do not have the
right to take individuals' rights and make them a privilege and
charge money for it. Also, there should not be restrictions on
where an individual may carry a concealed handgun.
Number 255
MICHAEL PAOLETTI of Anchorage stated he has been a permit holder
for approximately seven months, and he pointed out that he has to
remove his concealed and loaded handgun and leave it in his
unattended vehicle several times during his daily activities. He
also pointed out that he knows couples who would like to apply for
permits, but are unable to because of the costs. He does a lot of
camping and often uses the Alaska Marine Highway as a means of
transportation, and he finds the restriction of not being able to
carry his concealed handgun an inconvenience.
Number 295
RANDY SMITH of Anchorage, a certified NRA instructor, stated his
support for HB 338 and SB 177, and believes they address many of
the problems the program has had in the past, the biggest problem
being the restrictions on where a concealed handgun can be carried.
He noted that as an instructor he has denied and not given course
completion certificates to a few individuals strictly because of
where their heads are at. He said many people do not understand
what the law is, and, because of that, there is a real need for
them to take the concealed carry class. He also believes that
people with military experience should be required to take the
concealed carry courses, because military training with firearms is
100 percent different than training to carry a concealed handgun in
civilian life. He emphasized that having all the restrictions on
where a concealed handgun can be carried is really taking away from
the spirit of having a concealed carry.
Number 375
CHAIR JAMES asked Mr. Smith what he thinks can be done that will
encourage people to take the class, whether or not they are
interested in carrying a concealed handgun, because there is some
very valuable information in the class on personal protection.
MR. SMITH responded, basically, through education, and this state
needs to push firearm safety. It is estimated there is a firearm
in approximately 85 percent of the homes in the state of Alaska.
The state needs to push organizations or entities like the
Anchorage School District to provide training for firearm awareness
and firearm safety in the elementary schools and the junior highs.
He added that he encourages couples to take his class, and he
thinks it is really important that if there is a firearm in the
home, that as many people in that home that are going to be exposed
to that firearm have the information and the training that the
class provides.
Number 427
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER asked Mr. Smith if he was in opposition to
the portion of the bills that would eliminate the requirement for
a demonstration of physical competency with a firearm.
MR. SMITH acknowledged that was correct. He thinks it is very
important that people demonstrate that physical competency with an
instructor. He believes it is important that the instructors have
the ability to sit there and make sure an individual is handling
that gun safely.
Number 400
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Smith if he is in opposition to
reciprocity because there are other states that don't require the
kind of scrutiny that is required in Alaska.
MR. SMITH responded that he is opposed to reciprocity with states
that don't require the kind of scrutiny that is required in Alaska,
but he doesn't have a problem with the states that do have the
training requirements.
Number 475
CHAIR JAMES pointed out that most of the people that live in this
country are responsible, and she questioned if it is necessary to
put them at a disadvantage because some aren't.
MR. SMITH responded it was a very complex question, but he pointed
out that when a person applies for his first drivers license, there
is a requirement that a written test be passed, as well as getting
behind the wheel and demonstrating driving competency. He said a
drivers license is a privilege and the concealed carry permit is a
privilege under the state law. The Constitution gives people the
right to keep and bear arms, but it does not specify bearing those
arms concealed.
Number 518
SENATOR DAVE DONLEY said the question has come up about how many
hours of training is really necessary, and asked if Mr. Smith
thought it could be shortened.
MR. SMITH answered that the requirement is 12 hours, and the NRA
course they teach is a 12-hour course. However, he ends up
teaching about 13 1/2 hours to cover all the material that he
thinks is necessary and his students find that is necessary for
them to understand what is going on.
Number 570
REPRESENTATIVE IVAN IVAN commented that looking at this from a
rural perspective and the small villages he represents, it is
common knowledge that every family carries firearms of some type
for hunting and subsistence purposes. However, his concern is the
impact he sees coming to those areas because of their isolation
from centers like Anchorage and Fairbanks where this training is
available.
CHAIR JAMES agreed it is a difficult issue to address, but it is
one that needs to be addressed in some way.
Number 646
JAMES CLARK of Wasilla, testifying in Anchorage, stated he has
taken the NRA course and has a concealed handgun permit. He has
been a minister and a missionary for a number of years ministering
in the villages of Chalkyitsik and Fort Yukon. He has carried a
firearm as a pilot as a survival need. He has been accosted by
intoxicated people and has been threatened, but he has never had to
draw a firearm or even infer that he was carrying a firearm. He
believes this country has been a nation of freedoms, not a nation
of restrictions, and laws are designed for protection sake, not for
restriction sake. The more restrictions there are, the more
probability there is that any given person, at some point in time,
will become a law violator almost inadvertently.
TAPE 95-30, SIDE B
Number 004
Continuing his testimony, Mr. Clark said he admires Senator Green's
outline of what her modification to the Senate bill is because it
sets forth simplicity, not complexity.
Number 055
DREW VILLANI of Anchorage commended the committee for holding the
meeting because he believes it is an issue everybody should be
concerned about. He believes in the individual's right to keep and
bear arms, and he also believes the fingerprinting rule is
essentially defacto registration. He said he agrees with the
provision in the bill that allows concealed carry into air
terminals where it is not prohibited by the posting of signs
because the people who work there and the people who go to conduct
lawful business at the terminal should not be precluded from the
right to defend themselves.
Number 120
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN noted that the one issue heard throughout the
testimony has been the fact that people are having problems with
the restrictions of where they can carry a concealed weapon, and he
believes there are some appropriate changes in this legislation.
Number 128
SENATOR BERT SHARP expressed his appreciation for the informative
testimony presented to the committee and said SB 177, which is in
the Senate State Affairs Committee would probably be scheduled for
a hearing early in the upcoming legislative session.
Number 158
CHAIR JAMES said when she filed the original concealed handgun
legislation, she felt that whether people were in danger out there
or not, if they felt they were in danger, they ought to be able to
have a way of protecting themselves. Her intent was that people
who feel that they need to protect themselves ought to have a way
of doing it. However, her biggest concerns about the whole thing
are that it is too expensive and it does take a lot of time. Those
people who really want to take advantage of the concealed carry are
people who work and don't have all that time and their paycheck
isn't big enough to cover all of these things. The most vulnerable
people are the senior citizens, disabled and young working mothers,
and those are the areas where the cost factor has not been
addressed. She added that she is interested in hearing from people
any time on these issues and in making any changes that are
necessary and proper.
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business to come before the joint committee,
CHAIR JAMES adjourned the meeting at approximately 12:00 p.m.
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